Last Encounter God Night – Invitation

Encounter God Night is coming to a close, at least for this season. We’re not sure what the next season will look like, but we invite you to participate in the possible last one! Encounter God Nights are an opportunity to meet God through worship and prayer.

Our WCV youth have so faithfully led these evenings over the months, so we as a community thank you! Thank you for your heart to serve our community and minister to the Lord in worship and prayer!

The details: Thursday, June 27, 2019 @ 7 pm, 782 Main Street.

We hope to see you there!

Community Update: June 2019

We want to give you an update on a few developments that are underway in the community. We know that many of you have been praying. Thanks for the prayers! We also know that some of you have been wondering what is going on regarding Jodi’s position. We hope this communication will answer some of what you may be wondering!

As you know, Jodi has resigned from her position as Generations Pastor. Her last day with us will be July 27, after which she’ll be moving to Kelowna with Mike and a few of their kids. Obviously this is a major transition both for the Labun family and for WCV. Jodi has faithfully and tenaciously served as our Generations pastor overseeing our Children, Youth and Family ministries, for the past number of years. Thanks Jodi!

Any time of transition is also an opportunity to evaluate and restructure as needed. To this end we are doing an extensive review along with Jodi of everything she has carried as our Generations Pastor. Some of what she has done is quite quantifiable – Children’s activities via Kid’s church, as well as overseeing the various youth groups is a lot of work, but also fairly straightforward. What isn’t as easy to quantify, but no less important, is the amount of pastoral care she has carried. We are prayerfully and carefully considering what kind of situation would best serve WCV in this next season, as well as what scenario we can afford. We don’t know what the complete picture will look like yet, but there are a few pieces already coming into place.

Jodi, along with a few members of the Leadership Team, are working hard to secure teams and individual volunteers to be in place so our children and youth ministries can continue with as little disruption as possible as we head into the Fall. This is applies to both Youth and Children’s ministries. So many people are involved in this effort – it really does take a village to raise a child. We want to see these teams confirmed and equipped in whatever ways they need in order to see our Children and Youth thrive into the future.

We are also carefully evaluating the pastoral load that the reduced pastoral team will be carrying. This past season has seen tremendous upheaval in this regard, and we are considering possibilities for help. These include looking for a part-time interim pastor and / or other coordinator level roles. If you have a desire to volunteer in any capacity, please let us know.

We will continue to keep you informed as opportunities and information is available. Thank you for your faithful support and prayers. Good things are in store for our community!

 

 

Fingerprints: noticing God’s activity and presence

“…We are the clay, and you are the potter. We all are formed by your hand.” Isaiah 64:8

I have a set of pottery mugs I like to use for communion. The mugs are beautifully irregular. You can almost see the finger and thumbprints of the potter as they squeezed these mugs to create indents in their midsection, making them a little more eccentric than normal perfectly symmetrical vessels. They remind me that life is full of imperfections and that we humans are shaped by many forces and circumstances pressing into us and leaving their marks.

Scripture has a beautiful image of God moulding and shaping us like a potter forming lumps of clay. It is a messy image but it’s also a picture of slow, tender and intentional formation – making us into something both beautiful and usable. Invariably, the potter leaves a mark. For those who have eyes to see, the Creator’s fingerprints are all over creation.

This summer we’re going to pause to notice the imprints that God has made in our lives. We’re going to be giving space to hear those golden nugget stories which have God’s fingerprints on them – those moments God was present to us in a special way that resulted in some kind of transformative shaping in us. We’re going to hear various people share their stories of God’s presence and activity in their lives. It will be a season of encouragement through hearing other’s stories, as well as being challenged to notice God’s fingerprints in our own lives!

>>Where do you see God’s fingerprints in your life?

 

Summer 2019:

Fingerprints: personal stories of God’s presence and activity

Mercy Reset

Mercy Reset & Activities Update

#1 Food & New Friends Dinner: Church Greenspace Chicken Barbecue, Sunday June 23 @ noon

Establishing Environments to Facilitate Relational Connectivity. This “Food & New Friends Dinner” will be a community event with volunteers and all food provided from the church budget and donors. This is our intentional effort for everyone to mix and eat together with those we can help with resources. This will bring opportunities to connect with new people that we don’t really know. We encourage you to eat beside someone you don’t know, and connect with someone you may be able to help in the coming weeks. The promises of Matthew 25:31-40 will become real as we seek new friendships over dinner.

Volunteers Wanted for:

  • Chairs & Tables – set up & removal
  • Food Prep – we need 20 Caesar salads, that can serve 12, donated – UPDATE: Thank you to everyone who is bringing a salad! We have reached our desired quota!
  • Plate Assembly – We want to serve each person with no line ups. The youth team will help serve all the meals, but we need a few more volunteers for plate assembly.

Please direct your volunteer decision to John Rademaker

>>>Coming Sunday June 9 will be a teaching to envision relationship. “We are all are poor; we all can help.” Everyone has something to give.

#2 Camp Days: Hadashville, July 28 & Aug 25

The traditional after church bus ride and cars in Hadashville is a beautiful time to spend a few hours of food and fun with those who have no other chance to go to the lake, a park or place of beauty. It’s an opportunity to love on each other and find out what you can do to see Jesus in  the poor. We will do a brief spiritual focus prior to the swim. The swim time is the high light for most: canoeing, swimming, staying cool and just plain fun.

#3 Drop-In: Status – No Action Yet 

This was identified as a “Top of the needs” of the Street Parish. They want the time alone in a building, perhaps once a week to start, to hang-out with friends, do Bible study, videos, love Jesus, communion, food. They want to just be a family (valid and important!) This, however, is only doable with volunteers. We also don’t have a pastor to lead this yet. We have to line up free food. We have vision but no takers on making it happen. Staff is pursuing options but without a practical plan. This will be revisited it in fall. When we see a groundswell of volunteers we will get off the ground; we are waiting patiently for that to happen.

Meanwhile the personal friendships will have to carry the challenge.

Please plan to attend where you can!

The Beatitudes – Blessed are you Now!

I’m excited to be embarking on a new mini-series this Spring centring on the Beatitudes. God has been impressing the Sermon on the Mount on me for some time now and I’m excited and curious to begin to explore the beginning of this most famous of Jesus’ sermons. Excited because of what God will stir in us – and curious because I can only guess what the Spirit has in store! Why not follow along in your own personal times of reading and prayer as well as in your House Groups. The Beatitudes are found in Matthew 5.

We will look at the context of the Beatitudes – which are sometimes read as prescriptive rather than descriptive. What I mean by this is that often we read them like Jesus is saying “if you are like this, then one day you’ll be happy (or blessed)”. Kind of like a stick and carrot – just stick through this trouble that you’re in and you’ll be happy once you get through it… or worse… God will bless you more because you’ve suffered more. But this isn’t how they’re meant to be read! They are descriptive – meaning that Jesus is saying blessed are you right now if you’re mourning, or poor in spirit, or seeking peace, etc. It is the Kingdom come right now in the midst of these circumstances we find ourselves in. It is the hope of the Gospel – that the Holy Spirit comes in the middle of our muck and brings fresh perspective, healing and courage to help us keep moving forward. This is not a triumphalistic vague promise of a better time to come, nor is it a blind denial of our actual present circumstances. Rather it is a radical call to follow Jesus. It is a call to trust him with our very lives and follow him in the midst of all that this world can throw at us! It is a call to take Jesus seriously in the here and now and to reorient our lives around his upside-down, inside-out invitation as described in the Sermon on the Mount.

 

Image Credit: “The Sermon on the Mount” by Károly Ferenczy

 

Men’s Event

Hey, it has been just a little over a month now that we had the retreat, and we thought it would be a great time to reconnect with everyone. Richard called us to examine our fig leaves, what things have we used in our time, resources, identity that we hide behind, things that protect us from being vulnerable, and living out our identity as sons. The retreat was a great time to become vulnerable, and to share with other men in the community.

For the mens night we would love to reconnect, have a meal with each other, share some thoughts on the retreat and of course hang out. Can’t wait to see you there!

Friday May 24th, 2019

6:00 – 9:00 pm

Armbruster’s home (146 McAdam)

Please RSVP to Doug, no worries if you don’t though

What to bring:

  1. A sharable salad, side or beverage.  If what you bring has nuts/gluten, please label it.   Hotdogs and hamburgers will be provided.
  2. Bring runners or shoes for doing fun stuff outside. There will be opportunity to play some games – football/ultimate/street hockey or other things.  Does anyone have a croquet/lawn bowling set?
  3. Possible street hockey.  If enough people bring sticks, we can play a game of ball hockey.
  4. Lawn chair for sitting.
  5. Any other fun thing that people like to do outside.
  6. In the event of rain, we will be indoors.

Shawn & Adrianne’s daughter’s Funeral

Our deep condolences to Shawn & Adrianne, and the rest of their families, on the loss of their precious daughter, Michelle.

  • The Funeral is Friday, May 17, 2019, 10am at Bardal Funeral Home (843 Sherbrook St).
  • Burial at Brookside Cemetery immediately following the funeral.
  • Reception at WCV following the burial (at about 12pm).

 

Michelle Lucille Spence-Wood

February 23 – May 9, 2019

Suddenly at home on Thursday, May 9, 2019, we lost our precious baby to SIDS. She was only two-and-a-half months old. We are suffering a most grievous loss. Our hearts are broken. Our family sincerely thanks the Cook family, Pastor Andy Wood, and the members of the Vineyard Church for standing by us in our sorrow and for assisting us in so many ways.

Michelle’s parents are Amanda Adrianne Spence (Guimond) and Shawn Wood.  Her siblings are Nathan, Faith, Renae, Star, and Sara, her twin.  Along with her parents, Michelle lived with her maternal grandparents, Kookum Ida Spence and Mishoom Al Guimond, and her toddler cousin Julius.  Her paternal grandparents are Larry and Joan Wood from Brighton, Ontario.  She is sadly missed too by her aunt Leeanne Spence (Guimond) and her cousin Annabella Spence-Guimond, and by her many other close relatives.

A funeral service for Michelle will be held at 10:00 a.m. on Friday, May 17, 2019, at Bardal Funeral Home, 843 Sherbrook Street.  Pastor Andy Wood will be officiating.  Her step-aunt Vanessa Cook will sing a traditional memorial song for her.  Burial will follow at the Brookside Cemetery, 3001 Notre Dame Avenue. After the funeral you are invited to come with us to the Vineyard Church, 782 Main Street, parking lot entrance.  Our family asks that visitors bring food to share with each other at that time.

The following poem is by author Ron Ranmer.  We have not used the whole poem, and we changed several words to apply to our infant.

Broken Chain

We little knew that morning
That God would call your name.
In life we loved you dearly,
in death we do the same.

It broke our hearts to lose you,
You did not go alone.
For part of us went with you
When God called you home…

Our family chain is broken,
and nothing is the same,
But when we are called one by one,
The chain will link again.

 

If you would like to sign up for Shawn & Adrianne’s meal train, please go here.

TREK Sessions

From May 5 – June 30, Flatlanders Inn has partnered with the Multiply’s Central Canada team to host their TREK program’s orientation time. So a handful of people are moving in upstairs for the next two months to learn, prepare and pray towards what God is calling them to.  Some of them are heading to Brazil, and some to Japan. Others are staying in the north-end to join in what God has already begun right here in the heart of Winnipeg.

TREK has intentionally chosen to be here with us at this time to pray and worship and create with us and for us and this neighbourhood. To bless what God is doing here and to pray for what is to come. We are already feeling the love!

They are also inviting us to join in on what they are doing. There are weekly teaching sessions that will be happening in the Studio from 9 am – 4 pm. Each module has a small cost of $15 (this covers every day that a speaker is teaching).

  • May 10, 17: Larry Wilson – “A Path toward Healing & Wholeness”
  • May 13 – 16: Paul Winter – “Evangelism & Discipleship”
  • May 21 – 22: Elton Dasilva – “Holy Spirit Partnership”
  • May 23 -24: Paul Kroeker – “Path of Discipleship”
  • June 4 – 5: Randy Friesen – “Christ’s Kingdom Authority & Us”
  • June 10 – 12: Doug Penner – “Multiplying Discipleship Principles”
  • June 13 – 14: Bill Hogg – “Understanding & Sharing the Gospel”
  • June 17 – 20: Richard & Hazel Funk – “Healthy Sexuality”
  • June 24 – 26: Lloyd Letkeman – “Personal Gifting and Team Dynamics”

Contact Amanda Leighton or the church for more details.

Community Gatherings with David Ruis

We’ve been mentioning for awhile now that David Ruis (our National Director and WCV founding pastor – both roles shared with Anita) will be with us the weekend of May 11 – 12. We now have a few more details for you to put in your calendar and hopefully stir you up.

We’ve had David and Anita, as well as a few other National and Regional Vineyard leaders (Joyce Rees, Ruth Rousu, Nathan Rousu, Rik Berry) be with us over this past season. These visits have infused life in our community and have been very helpful for the leadership team. While their times in Winnipeg have been super helpful in encouraging and advising the leadership, we know that the rest of the community gets limited interaction  with these guests on Sunday mornings. This time around we want to maximize community time with David. To that end, we want to invite you to an afternoon with David, Saturday, May 11 from 2 – 5pm. This will be an intentionally curated time together during which members of the Leadership Team (Pastoral & Lay Elders and BOD) alongside David will be able to address issues, answer questions, provide feedback and offer support as needed. We will be holding space address topics like building trust, leadership, WCV health, forward vision, and others, with lots of opportunity to give and receive feedback. Additionally, David will share some exciting perspectives on Vineyard Canada, what God is up to among our wider Vineyard family, and some foundational stories of WCV.

The primary purpose of this time is to create a non-hurried space for dialogue as a community and with David. We hope to see you there!

He will be sharing with us on Sunday morning as well (May 12).

>>Saturday, May 11, 2pm – 5pm

>>782 Main St.

New Elder Process & Roles – an invitation

The Role of the Elders at WCV

In the Vineyard, Elders function as overseers who tend to the spiritual health and vision of the community.  They are a small group of seasoned leaders and followers of Jesus who gather regularly to prayerfully seek God’s direction and counsel for all visionary matters relating to church life. There are two kinds of elders in Winnipeg Centre Vineyard – Pastoral Elders (typically paid staff members)* and Lay Elders (volunteers from the church community).

There are a number of examples of Elders’ roles in scripture including: leading the church [1 Tim 5:17; Titus 1:7; 1 Peter 5:1–2], teaching and preaching [1 Timothy 3:2; 2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 1:9], encouraging, challenging and protecting the church according to scripture [1 Timothy 4:13; 2 Timothy 3:13–17; Titus 1:9], visiting the sick and praying [James 5:14; Acts 6:4], and weighing issues of doctrine [Acts 15:6]. They are charged with the care of the community – to help, equip and lead.

In WCV, the Pastoral and Lay Elders work together, however the Pastoral Elders have the added responsibility of implementing the daily tasks associated with our vision. Currently the Elders are led by our Pastoral Executive who is accountable to the whole leadership team.

The Pastoral and Lay Elders have the authority to tend to the needs and spiritual affairs arising from the vision of the church community. However, if their proposed actions will have an effect on the legal, managerial or financial affairs of the church community, they must obtain the approval of the Board of Directors before moving forward.

In order to create a sense of cohesion between all Leadership Teams at WCV, we recently have begun Joint Leadership Team meetings where the BOD and Elders (pastoral and lay) gather together to pray and discuss macro plans, goals and objectives. This way we can be moving forward together.

Current Pastoral Elders:

  • Andy (Pastoral Executive) and Beckie Wood
  • Jodi and Mike Labun (stepping down Summer 2019)
  • John and Violet Rademaker (non-paid)

Current Lay Elders:

  • Paul and Sherry Ansloos (stepping down Summer 2019)
  • Krista (Elder Point Person) and Cliff Heide (started March 2015)
  • Rod and Elisa Jersak (started March 2016)
  • Theresa and Jason Eheler (Stepping down end of April 2019)

*Note: Not all WCV staff members are automatically Pastoral Elders.

What we look for in Elders:

1. Biblical requirements for Eldership as explained in 1 Timothy 3 & Titus 1.

2. Walking out and dialoguing with our 15 Core Practices. Of particular note are: Devotion to Jesus (elders should be devoted to their walk with God), Circles of Sharing (a hallmark of eldership is hospitality) and Generosity (elders should be tithing to the local church).

3. A good fit with the current team and the season the Vineyard is in. While there are many people who generally qualify as elders, the current elders must prayerfully discern who is the best fit for right now.  What skills and gift mix will best suit the team already? Do we have a good representation of the voices of our community in our leadership (young, old, male, female, married, single, etc. )? This is not a popularity contest – it is a serious process to discern who God has prepared and gifted to serve the whole community at this time.

4. Already serving in ministry in some form in the church (worship, children, youth, house group, hospitality, etc.). Elders carry a pastoral heart for the community which must find expression.

5. Elders, while not always older, are all seasoned leaders and followers of Jesus.

6. Elders can be married couples, singles, or one partner in a marriage.

A few points to keep in mind:

  1. Leadership is servanthood. It’s not about ordering others around, but rather serving others (Luke 22:25-27). Being an elder isn’t a promotion. Rather, it’s a recognition of the way a person is currently serving and influencing our community.
  2. Leadership is action. It’s not about position or titles. While specific roles can be very helpful, true leadership is never about titles. If someone has a position of leadership, but doesn’t have anyone following, then they’re just going for a walk.

What Serving as a Lay Elder Looks Like:

While we normally choose elders who are already eldering in our community in some sort of fashion, there are several added responsibilities for those serving on the Eldership Team.

  1. Communication and Minutes. Elders are put on the email thread for weekly staff minutes, BOD minutes, and other church leadership news items. Elders should be reading these forms of communication to keep a pulse on what the leadership is working on. They should also ask questions, and add input as needed, as well as regularly pray for the workings of the church.
  2. Monthly Elder Meetings. The Pastoral and Lay Elders gather together once a month. The purposes of these meetings are two fold: a) to spend an time in worship and prayer, listening for what God is doing in our midst, and discern what He is inviting us to. b) Talking through spiritual needs in our community, and making plans for extending care.
  3. Regular Joint Leadership Team Gatherings. New this year to our Leadership structure is regular Joint Leadership team Gatherings between the Elders, Pastoral staff, and Board of Directors. The purpose of these gatherings are for our various leadership spheres to be face to face with one another as we seek God’s vision and direction, and collaborate in aligning our strategies to walk forward together. We hope to develop a rhythm for these to happen 3-4 times a year. Though, in more complicated seasons, these gatherings will happen more frequently.
  4. Yearly Retreat. Once a year (typically May / June) the Elders go on a two day retreat with a focus of praying and seeking God together. During this time we reflect on the highs and lows of the last year, and begin to dream and envision the next year.
  5. Regular Connection with Community. Elders need to commit to being available to serve and extend care to the community. This involves welcoming newcomers, gathering to pray for those in need, showing hospitality, and meeting with congregants to listen to questions, concerns or suggestions.

 

New Lay Elder Process:

New Lay Elders are nominated and selected through a several month process. The suggested term for elders is three years, though at times this has been extended.* In the past WCV has engaged in the process of bringing in new lay elders every few years as current elders step down.

Here is a detailed look at what the new Lay Elder Process looks like:

  1. Nomination and Discernment . During this time the community and the elder team nominate those they see are currently functioning as elders (even if they don’t have the position). Prayerfully ask, “who do I naturally look to for counsel, support, care, etc?”  Chances are, those are the people who are already functioning as elders. At the same time, the Pastoral and Lay Elders are prayerfully discerning if people qualify and are a good fit for the current team and season of life the church is in.
  2. Proposal & Mutual Consideration. The Pastoral Elders will contact potential new elders and invite them to prayerfully consider. This is a period in which we see if this “seems good to us and the Holy Spirit”.
  3. Prospective Elder Period.  This is a three-month period during which prospective elders come to monthly elder meetings and are in communication with Pastoral Elders.  At the end of this period it’s determined if it is a fit.
  4. Membership Vote. Those who are formal members of WCV are able to vote on the prospective new elders. If the new elder is ratified, this begins their 3-year term.  Bear in mind that this is a vote, not on who should become elders, but on whether those who’ve been identified via the above process are the right decision for the Vineyard at this time.

*Changes to look for in the future:

After this strenuous season in our church where the demands on leadership have been heavy, we are more aware of the value of being diligent in both inviting in and rotating out those serving as lay elders. Though we do not have this all figured out, we are in the process of developing healthy and sustainable term lengths, evaluation and extension processes, and a yearly strategy to bring in new elders. Our community is full of so many gifted and capable leaders, we look forward to seeing a more regular rotation of this fresh life into our leadership.

An Invitation:

We invite you to prayerfully consider who the Lord may be inviting to step into serving the community for the next season of our life together. We will be using the above criteria to prayerfully discern who to invite into this area of leadership and service. Please submit names to the office or Andy during the month of May, 2019.

 

Schools of Spiritual Formation ~ This Fall 2019

This fall, there are two Schools of Spiritual Formation offered through Sustainable Faith. You may have heard about them: The School of Spiritual Direction, and The School of Mercy and Justice. Here’s a bit of information on these two amazing schools.

The School of Spiritual Direction (SOSD) is a two-year program, the first of which is intended to provide a well-rounded introduction to the ministry of spiritual direction, and the second of which is intended for those who envision spiritual direction as a fairly significant feature of their vocation. A real highlight of the school is the opportunity to offer spiritual direction early on and receive peer and formal supervision while doing so and, in the second year, engaging in an annotated version of the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius.

  • SOSD Year One
    • Oct 4-5, 2019
    • Nov 22-23, 2019
    • Jan 24-25, 2020
    • Mar 20-21, 2020
    • May 8-9, 2020
  • SOSD Year Two (Dates TBD)

 

The School of Mercy and Justice (SOMJ) is a one-year program particularly for those who desire to cultivate a deep, vibrant interior life with God and engage effectively and healthily in the practical work of mercy and justice in the world. It’s spiritual formation for those who long to embody a contemplative posture while engaging in an active life with those on the margins of society.

  • SOMJ
    • Oct 18-19, 2019
    • Dec 6-7, 2019
    • Feb 7-8, 2020
    • Apr 3-4, 2020
    • May 29-30, 2020

>>>Please see the Sustainable Faith website for more information and registration.

Prayer & Fasting – so what did God say to you?

What an amazing weekend. Our Good Friday service engagement with the Stations of the Cross was “the best ever” (many of you said this to us) and Easter Sunday was a joyful celebration of resurrection and life. In between these times, many of you were engaging in a time of prayer and fasting. It isn’t always the point of fasting to “get something” from God… but just in case some of you did, and just in case that “something” might be for the whole church, we’d like to know about it. Please let us know! You can simply email the office and it will be processed appropriately amongst the leadership.

A Community Update: including AGM2, Prayer & Fasting

Hey folks,

We want to say thanks, again for hanging in there during this season. God is shaking things… but we know that times of shaking are inevitably both difficult and clarifying… Let’s keep pressing into Jesus, into community, into vulnerability, humility, grace and love, and we will continue to emerge from this Winter into Spring (despite the snow we see today!).

Speaking of community, there are many good conversations being had. The Pastoral and Lay Elders had a great meeting last Monday discussing both where we’re at as a church and next steps moving forward. The BOD is engaged in a number of initiatives that will bring organizational, structural and financial health to WCV (more on that at our AGM Part 2). Many of you are engaged in dialogue and input via the Talking Circles, our community Survey, within House Groups, meetings with various leaders, etc. We are deeply appreciative of all the dialogue that helps us move in a positive and healing direction.

In the interest of keeping communication flowing, we want to let you know of a few plans on the horizon as we look forward:

April 19, 7pm: Good Friday Service & Stations of the Cross 

This year we’ve acquired an amazing art exhibit that showcases the Stations of the Cross and creates an interactive atmosphere to engage with Jesus on his journey to the cross through scripture and art. Read more about it here. Fully engaging in Good Friday makes our celebration on Easter Sunday all the more amazing…

April 19 – 21: Prayer & Fasting

We are calling the community to a fast from Good Friday to Resurrection Sunday. Andy will be teaching on it this coming Sunday to help us prepare.

April 28 (Sunday morning): AGM Part 2

At our previous AGM we weren’t able to cover everything we needed to. In order to give maximum opportunity for our church family to attend and be involved we are going to have this AGM Part 2 on a Sunday morning during our regular gathering (after worship and kid’s are released).

May 11 – 12: David Ruis

David (Vineyard Canada National Director) will be sharing on the Sunday morning (May 12), as well as on the Saturday before (May 11). He will be speaking on recapturing the heart of the Kingdom. Mark your calendars.

Drop-in:

There has been a recent initiative that is designed to hear from people directly in the Street Parish. We’ve been asking questions like “What do you want?”, “What do you feel is necessary in this part of WCV”, “What do you feel God is doing?” and other such questions. Watch for more on this.